00:00:00:55 – 00:00:32:30
Clint Loveall
Hey, everybody. Thanks for being with us. Happy Tuesday. Glad to have you back. As we move into the eighth chapter of job and following up the next cycle of speeches, Eliphaz has spoken. Job has responded today. It is the man, Bill. Dad’s turn. Turn to speak and yesterday, Michael, we made the case that there is a kind of ramp up in the speeches.

00:00:32:31 – 00:00:41:29
Clint Loveall
Eliphaz seems to have tried to be pretty respectful. I think that gets thrown out the window.

00:00:41:38 – 00:00:41:54
Michael Gewecke
Yep.

00:00:42:07 – 00:01:11:24
Clint Loveall
Pretty fast. So, as we jump in here, Bill, dad’s speech is shorter, which is typical in the cycle of speeches. The l’affaire says a lot, bill. Dad says a little, then. So far in the last case, doesn’t even say anything. But then, Bill, dad answered, how long will you say these things? And the words of your mouth be a great wind.

00:01:11:29 – 00:01:44:10
Clint Loveall
Does God pervert justice? Does the almighty pervert the right? So right away here you get a little sense that Bill dad is not happy with job. And then I think, I don’t know, Michael. I think one of the harshest, maybe one of the harshest verses in the book. Comes next. If your children sinned against him, he delivered them into the power of their transgression.

00:01:44:15 – 00:02:23:03
Clint Loveall
If you can imagine saying this to a person who’s lost his faith, I mean, this is these are brutal. I it it’s hard to feel good about this guy. He’s. Not the case he’s making is that God punishes sin. But to insinuate that job’s children must have somehow not insinuate that he’s saying it to. To basically say that job’s children deserved their fate.

00:02:23:07 – 00:02:39:51
Clint Loveall
And then perhaps job does as well. Those are stunningly harsh words. I again, I think we could read over them and maybe not take into account not think them through, but that’s rough.

00:02:39:55 – 00:03:08:06
Michael Gewecke
So let’s engage with this in a more methodical way, because the way that this book began, you might remember Jobe was making sacrifices on behalf of his children. And in fact, that was presented as evidence of how upright and how godly Joe was that he not only was interested in covering his own transgression, but he was thoughtful enough to think, you know, I want even to make sacrifices for the people closest to me.

00:03:08:06 – 00:03:39:09
Michael Gewecke
And so now here we literally have the children in laser focus. So they’re the ones front and center here. If your children sinned against God, he delivered them into the power. And this is important, not God’s righteous judgment, their transgression. Right? In other words, they got what was coming to them. And Clint, this is, I think, troubling, as you said, and rightly so.

00:03:39:14 – 00:04:19:38
Michael Gewecke
I think, though, what Bill dad is doing is stopping that sort of run around the bush and coming out with it. Right. If the fundamental assumption here is theologically that God is just, God brings justice to the unrighteous like God metes out transgression that’s equal to the transgression that is done committed, then ultimately what Bill dad is saying is Joe, you better watch your mouth because as you’re coming at God, all you’re doing and I think this is going to get flushed out as we go further into chapter eight.

00:04:19:38 – 00:04:51:05
Michael Gewecke
But all you’re doing is, is you are attacking God for the thing that was righteously delivered because of your children’s actions. It is a a plus b equals c and and so therefore a equals C type situation. And I just think we have to be very, very cautious of course with that. But what this is doing effectively is getting that thing that might have been assumed in the worthiness of the previous speech, and it’s making it explicit in this speech.

00:04:51:14 – 00:05:39:21
Clint Loveall
There’s a certain danger, at least a certain risk in if then theology. It it sounds good. It’s formulaic. It locks God and people into a pattern. If A then B and notice that these several of these verses here begin with that idea. If your children did that, then he delivered them. And now he goes from that. If you will seek God and make supplications, if you are pure and upright, surely then he will rouse himself for you and restore you to your rightful place.

00:05:39:21 – 00:06:14:06
Clint Loveall
Though your beginning was small, your later days will be great. So again, what’s the implication here? You’re in the wrong, you’ve done something wrong, and if you would make supplication, if you would return yourself to purity and uprightness, then you would be restored. So we are seeing the next step, logical step of a maybe not entirely logical argument, but we’re seeing it go where it would naturally go.

00:06:14:11 – 00:06:46:48
Clint Loveall
Jobe, you, your suffering, your children, your children were killed. They must have deserved it. You are suffering. You must also deserve it. And if you would admit that and confess and repent, etc., then maybe there would still be a blessing for you. And all of this locks jobe the world and God into a very formulaic relationship. When this happens, this happens.

00:06:46:48 – 00:07:08:02
Clint Loveall
And when this happens, this happens. And it’s a it’s a safe box when you’re an observer of it, when you’re not jobe, it’s probably a comforting idea. But in the midst of suffering, it is very unlikely to be particularly helpful.

00:07:08:09 – 00:07:29:25
Michael Gewecke
Well, there was that moment where we were sort of lifting up these men’s response to Jobe in the beginning through silence and point out, you know, maybe that’s a good way to go. I think now we’re giving a classic example of not such a great path to take. And if you’re consoling someone in suffering, verse 20, God will not reject a blameless person, nor take the hand of evil doers.

00:07:29:25 – 00:07:47:24
Michael Gewecke
He will yet fill your mouth with laughter and your lips with shouts of joy. Those who hate you will be clothed with shame. The tent of the wicked will be no more. I can’t think of a more tone deaf way to speak to someone in the midst of suffering, than to say, you’re going to be laughing and joyful again, right?

00:07:47:24 – 00:08:15:02
Michael Gewecke
The man’s lost everything. His body is covered with sores. He is the torrent of his pain, even directed at God Himself, just literally verses before. And now you say God’s going to be the one to give it all back to you. You’re going to love it, job. It’s going to be great. In fact, anybody who shames you, those are the people who will be shamed that that, that that is not words hearable by that person in the midst of the darkest night it comes.

00:08:15:07 – 00:09:12:57
Clint Loveall
I think those comments often come from a place of discomfort. When we see someone in pain and we we want to offer some encouraging words. So we say something, but maybe we don’t think it through, but because unfortunately, I think you’re on the right track, Michael. They have the unintended consequence of making light of that person’s suffering. What what’s, discouraging is how many people have that story if they’ve lost a child or a pregnancy and someone says, you’re young, you can have another child or if a young person has lost a spouse and someone says, well, there’s plenty of time for you to get married again, yeah, well, yes, those things are true.

00:09:12:57 – 00:09:43:16
Clint Loveall
But they don’t. They don’t speak to the pain that the person is experiencing in that moment. And, again, I think those things are not said intending to be off putting, but they’re not they’re not helpful. And it is very unlikely that these words were helpful where they take job is an interesting place. Job now begins to plead his case.

00:09:43:21 – 00:10:20:44
Clint Loveall
Not only that, he’s innocent, which he he will go on and say that, but that he’s helpless, in other words, that he has no recourse except to live out this sentence that has been placed upon him, that there’s no one to appeal to. There’s no process, there’s no. So listen. Listen to these words. Indeed. I know this is so, but how can a mortal be just before God if one wish to contend with him, one could not answer him in a thousand.

00:10:20:49 – 00:10:44:42
Clint Loveall
He is wise in heart and mighty in strength, who has resisted him and succeeded he who removes mountains, and they do not know what. And when he overturns them in his anger. And then he goes on to say all of the things that God can do. But then he says in verse 12, he snatches away who can stop him?

00:10:44:47 – 00:11:14:27
Clint Loveall
Who will say to him, what are you doing? Verse 13, though I am innocent, I cannot answer him. I must appeal for mercy to my accuser. If I summoned him and he answered me, I do not believe that he would listen to my voice. For he crushes me with a tempest and multiplies my wounds without cause. He will not let me get my breath, but fills me with bitterness.

00:11:14:27 – 00:11:39:22
Clint Loveall
And. And then we get more of the same. As he goes on. And the case job is making here is very interesting. Essentially saying, I know that I don’t deserve these things, but what difference does it make there? This isn’t a matter of justice. If it were a matter of justice that I had done wrong and been rightly punished, that would be one thing.

00:11:39:27 – 00:12:19:12
Clint Loveall
But who’s going to tell God he’s in the wrong? Who is going to? Who’s going to hear the matter? If I protest? Who? Who’s going to advocate for me when the one who is my advocate is the one attacking me? It’s it’s a, it’s a profound place that Jobe goes theologically. I think Michael, as he begins to really struggle with the implications of his what we might call faith or faithfulness and the depth and of the painful ness of his experience.

00:12:19:12 – 00:12:25:57
Clint Loveall
It takes him to a very interesting experience, a very interesting place.

00:12:26:02 – 00:12:56:13
Michael Gewecke
It all hinges, and I think we see Joe tipping his hand as to what the foundational block of this is for him in verse 20 I am innocent. My own mouth would condemn me, so I am blameless. He would prove me perverse. Why be? Because job’s saying, I’m damned if I do, damned if I don’t. Because if I say that I have committed wrong as these friends are arguing right, that it’s just so that the suffering can be made right.

00:12:56:22 – 00:13:21:12
Michael Gewecke
Basically, if I admit to have done wrong that God will remove the transgression because I repented, then the sin job is saying that I will have committed is lying because I don’t believe that I am not innocent. I believe that I’ve been right before God. So therefore it would be lie to to confess something that isn’t true and, and ultimately, verse 21, here I am blameless.

00:13:21:12 – 00:14:03:24
Michael Gewecke
I do not know myself. I loathe my life. And then it goes on here. I’m afraid of all my suffering. For I know you will not hold me innocent. I shall be condemned. Why, then do I labor in vain? I ultimately, there there is no umpire between us who would lay his hand on a spot that is getting to the heart of the division between these parties, whereas the the friends in this case, you know, we have, we have the argument being made that job is.

00:14:03:28 – 00:14:28:37
Michael Gewecke
Prideful, unwilling to admit the truth of his brokenness before and Almighty God, who is just and faithful and can be trusted as a mediator. Job’s argument is because God has brought or allowed this suffering upon me for no justifiable or righteous reason. It puts me in a position where I can’t possibly be judged rightly, because there’s no referee who’s fair, only God.

00:14:28:49 – 00:14:32:43
Michael Gewecke
And if God has chosen this, then what other recourse does a person have?

00:14:32:43 – 00:14:46:58
Clint Loveall
Yeah, I think there’s an important idea in verse 19. If it’s a contest of strength, he is the strong one. If it’s a matter of justice, who can summon him? In other words, who’s going to hold God accountable?

00:14:47:00 – 00:14:47:20
Michael Gewecke
Yeah.

00:14:47:31 – 00:15:25:46
Clint Loveall
And that now I think this creates an interesting question. There are commentators who say that Jobe does not accept the premise of his friends, that if you do good, you receive good, and if you do bad, you receive bad. I’m not convinced of that. I, I in some of job’s responses, I’m tempted to think that Jobe shares the worldview of his friends and what upsets Jobe is that God is not in job’s eyes, holding up God’s end of the bargain.

00:15:25:51 – 00:15:54:58
Clint Loveall
In other words, I’ve. I’ve done good. I’ve been. I’ve been righteous. I’ve. I’ve not sinned. And yet you are against me. And who am I going to take my case to? The judge is the one persecuting me. He’s not going to find me. He’s not going to find in my favor. And I, I hear that in some of what Jobe says.

00:15:55:03 – 00:16:31:19
Clint Loveall
So not only as we as we go deeper and deeper into this book. And I think we’ve warned you multiple times, Jobe, is a spiral staircase down into the question of human suffering. So now we have not only the experience that Jobe has had in loss and in physical suffering. Now we have the spiritual isolation of feeling like the very one he looks to is the one who is now against him.

00:16:31:24 – 00:17:03:04
Clint Loveall
And and he has no place to plead his case. He has no no one whom he can turn to and say, this isn’t right, because the one who should play that role is the one working against him. And where does that take Jobe? Chapter ten I loathe my life. I will speak my complaint. I will speak the bitterness of my soul.

00:17:03:09 – 00:17:28:07
Clint Loveall
I will say to God, do not condemn me. Let me know why you contend against me. Does it seem good to you to oppress, to despise the work of your hand, and favor of the schemes of the wicked? In other words, part of what Jobe seems to be saying is I won’t be silent. I won’t just go along with this.

00:17:28:12 – 00:18:09:34
Clint Loveall
There is for me something wrong? And I believe it must be spoken of. Verse seven, although you know that I am not guilty and there is no one to deliver out of your hand, your hands fashioned and made me. And now you turn and destroy me. When we tend to think of job’s suffering, Michael, I tend I think we tend to think of the loss of his family, the loss of his possessions, the loss of his wealth, and then the physical suffering of his sores that we read early in the book.

00:18:09:39 – 00:18:40:45
Clint Loveall
I actually wonder if the deeper part of job’s suffering is this spiritual crisis of feeling the separation between himself and God, not only the separation, but from job’s perspective, animosity or against ness instead of a with and for God is now against. And it seems to me that in some ways that now becomes the primary focus of job’s experience.

00:18:40:49 – 00:19:11:54
Michael Gewecke
So if you’re in the midst of deep suffering, right now, I think this is enough that you can stop here. Jonah. Job’s response likely resonates with you. That’s one of the masterful ways that this comes to us. But if if you’re not in that moment right now and you can look at this book through a more analytical lens, I do think there’s there’s another thing that we can see here in verse 14, if I sin, you watch me and you do not equip me at my iniquity.

00:19:12:07 – 00:19:35:44
Michael Gewecke
And if I’m wicked, woe to me if I’m righteous. I cannot lift up my head, for I, I’m filled with disgrace. And you look upon my affliction as a lion. You hunt me. I think Clint, if you can take a step back and look at job, one of the core conflicts happening is between the created and the creator.

00:19:35:49 – 00:19:59:02
Michael Gewecke
Right? You have the one who does not possess the power, the one who says, I have fulfilled my part of the formula and the formula is not delivering as we had all agreed it should. And ultimately you have one without power making accusation against the one who does. And that is all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

00:19:59:02 – 00:20:35:02
Michael Gewecke
Genesis chapter three. You have this, this human desire for a predictable relationship with God. And here when Jobe says, quite frankly, it doesn’t matter if I sin and it doesn’t matter if I’m righteous either way, what would have me? That is a reflection, I think, of saying, ultimately I’m powerless to do anything should God choose to come against me and and hence why and make no the fact he doesn’t curse God, he curses the day of his birth.

00:20:35:02 – 00:20:53:46
Michael Gewecke
He he curses having ever existed. Because when he entered into the world, he entered into a broken formula. He doesn’t he doesn’t go after God explicitly in these words. But there’s a way in which he is tipping his hand to the fact that this isn’t a rightly balanced scale.

00:20:53:51 – 00:21:29:15
Clint Loveall
Yeah. And there’s an aspect to that that, again, I think is very difficult to appreciate. If you yourself are in a time, a season of struggle, a season of pain. What I think we can give Jobe, though, is Jo Job’s temptation is never to believe life is bad. There is no God. Jo job’s faith is deeper than his suffering.

00:21:29:16 – 00:22:12:25
Clint Loveall
Right? Now. At least around the edges, the trust that Jobe has in God is beginning to fray. But it takes a certain amount of faith to pray these prayers to say, look, you got me. You win. What? What could I do to stop you? Why are you doing that? There is in that. A certain tenacity of faith that I think we can give Jobe some credit for, though.

00:22:12:30 – 00:22:57:29
Clint Loveall
We’re on. We’re we’re having theological conversation now. Now, again, if you’re in a season of filled with pain, none of that’s going to matter. But Jobe trusts God enough. Is that the right word? Michael Jobe offers God the the truth of the way he’s feeling. He he throws it out believing that God can receive it. Right. And and that’s something it’s not, it doesn’t make the whole thing maybe more comfortable.

00:22:57:34 – 00:23:31:42
Clint Loveall
But there’s something to be said for that level of authenticity and genuine lament, even complaint that Jobe shares with God, he does not feel compelled to hide his feelings, to hide his opinions, nor is he at all interested in letting go of the idea that there must be a good God out there. He’s not he. This. This is not a faith crisis.

00:23:31:42 – 00:23:38:21
Clint Loveall
This is a I don’t know if I understand who God is. Crisis.

00:23:38:25 – 00:24:08:06
Michael Gewecke
One thing you just add to that list. I think that job’s character, which leads him to be unwilling to say something he does not believe is true, his unwillingness to yield to his friend’s demands and just confess guilt that he doesn’t know. Right? Just appease God. Say, say the thing. Say that everybody’s always said, you know that those who trespass are the ones who will, have these transgressions.

00:24:08:06 – 00:24:35:49
Michael Gewecke
Just admit it. Get it out there, get appease God. He’s unwilling to do that. And there’s a way in which Jobe takes God seriously in that. In other words, instead of just backing down for whatever would seem to be the quick fix to his problem, Jobe insists that the right response is the one that is rooted in the truth, and in doing so, he gives us a unique vantage as to his relationship with that God.

00:24:35:49 – 00:25:05:18
Michael Gewecke
And then that way it is a statement of faith. It’s a it’s rooted in that, that an upright character matters, and he’s going to stand on that character no matter where it takes him. And it puts him directly in the crosshairs of everything that everyone always knew, and also in the crosshairs of the God who we know that has been at some level, fairly deduced in job’s comments.

00:25:05:27 – 00:25:15:29
Michael Gewecke
You know, God, God has taken action here, whether he knows that or not. He’s correct in some of his assessments, even if he’s not correct in where it leads him.

00:25:15:34 – 00:25:51:55
Clint Loveall
And there’s something there’s something deeply and even beautifully human in this. Because when we are in a period of time of deep suffering, the question, why is the question we above all else would want answered? What? Why? And the answer that job’s friends give him. Jobe knows it’s wrong. Jobe knows it’s incomplete. It’s misguided. They have a nice explanation, and Jobe knows it doesn’t work.

00:25:51:55 – 00:26:17:43
Clint Loveall
Yeah, and so what Jobe desperately cries out for is a real opportunity to hear and answer from God. And we’ll see more of that as we turn to the final of the first cycle of speeches. Reminder that we are off tomorrow. Wednesday will be back on Thursday to finish up this first round of speeches and to see, where it continues to take us.

00:26:17:54 – 00:26:21:18
Michael Gewecke
Thanks for being with us so far. Like so. Subscribe. See you Thursday.