00:00:00:30 – 00:00:27:52
Clint Loveall
Hey everybody, thanks for being back with us. As we continue in the book of job. We find ourselves in the sixth verse of chapter one today, and this is, I think, really the heart of job, this passage and what follows it. This is where it gets difficult. And, I think the what we’re going to read, Michael, is troubling for people.

00:00:27:54 – 00:00:50:51
Clint Loveall
I mean, it’s just one of those it this is not an easy book, but this is one of the parts of it that I think leave people somewhat confused. So let me jump in. I’ll read, all about six verses. We’ll come back and we’ll try to work our way through it. One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

00:00:50:51 – 00:01:09:25
Clint Loveall
The Lord said to Satan, where have you come from? Satan answered the Lord, from going to and fro over the earth, and from walking up and down on it, the Lord said to Satan, have you considered my servant job? There is none like him on the face of the earth, a blameless, upright man who fears God and turns from evil.

00:01:09:30 – 00:01:29:31
Clint Loveall
Then Satan answered, the Lord does job fear God for nothing? Have you not put a fence around him and his house and all that he has on every side? You’ve blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand now and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.

00:01:29:36 – 00:01:58:18
Clint Loveall
The Lord said to Satan, very well. All that he has is in your power only do not stretch out your hand against him. So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. So, I think this is if if one were to try and read this literally, it creates all kinds of problems. And one of the first ones we encounter is with the word Satan.

00:01:58:19 – 00:02:34:05
Clint Loveall
In Hebrew, the word Satan means an accuser or an adversary, and it is used throughout the Old Testament not as a name, but as a description. So for instance, David, when he’s fighting the Philistines, the Philistines refer to David as Satan. And there are angels that God sends to to carry out judgment. They are called Satan’s. There are kings, human figures that are called Satan’s.

00:02:34:10 – 00:03:11:45
Clint Loveall
And and because this went on and later became the name by which we personify evil, it is a natural. It’s a natural jump to invasion that personified person that that the devil in the temptation narrative of Jesus, for instance. But it is very unlikely that that’s what the author means. One is the language I’ve just told you, and the other thing is that, Satan in job always has an article in front of it.

00:03:11:45 – 00:03:53:46
Clint Loveall
So it’s the Satan. It’s it’s it’s not Satan. As we 2000 years later, well, 2000 years plus later. Read it and does that matter? Yeah. Kind of. I mean, the idea that that this, this being is among the heavenly beings, the they’re called the sons of God. And rather than being evil, this being is adversarial. In other words, he challenges God.

00:03:53:51 – 00:04:06:42
Clint Loveall
God says, you know, wow, have you seen job? He’s he’s doing great. And at that point, the Satan sees an opportunity to try to, work against him.

00:04:06:46 – 00:04:24:43
Michael Gewecke
You know, Clint, I do think that having contexts isn’t necessarily going to soften the blow of this, but I do think it significantly helps nuance it. And there’s a few things worth pointing out here, I think. And so the first one I want to point out is what we mentioned yesterday when we started this book, chapter one one.

00:04:24:48 – 00:04:45:43
Michael Gewecke
There once was a man, and we talked about how there’s this sense that of a timelessness and the introduction of this book. Notice in verse six, one day, so there’s a literary thing happening there. You’ve got, you know, there once was a time which is this sort of like what we have. It’s the set up of some of our stories, you know, a long, long time ago kind of set up.

00:04:45:48 – 00:05:09:23
Michael Gewecke
And then now verse six, and then on one day, now we have the, the beginning of the action that we are getting the context for the start of the story that’s going to be told. And make note here that in ancient culture, this idea of their being as we have translated here, these heavenly beings, it would be very common in that culture for a king to have a court.

00:05:09:36 – 00:05:34:50
Michael Gewecke
And it was very common practice inside that court for there to be advisers had discussion, even debate and argument. There’s very much this conception that the leader would be having these very strong conversations with people who would have wisdom, people who would have very specific roles and jobs that they’d be going out neither enacting or to be bringing back information that this will all come to and from the king.

00:05:34:55 – 00:05:54:23
Michael Gewecke
And then that would go out from that court for the leadership guidance of the people. In a culture where that is a commonly known structure, it’s hard for us to not see a similar frame over the story that we have here. On one day we have God, who is the chief of all the kings, and here comes the accuser.

00:05:54:32 – 00:06:24:11
Michael Gewecke
Surely in every court you’re going to have the people who are bringing information which is both positive and also you could have those who are bringing up information. That’s a challenge, right? And here you have this, this question, then that gets set off. And interestingly, Clint, maybe the challenge begins with the way that this discourse starts. And that’s when God says to the accuser, have you considered my servant Joe?

00:06:24:16 – 00:06:46:52
Michael Gewecke
There’s a way in which know maybe this story would be softer for us if that accusers, the one that brought the name and you thought like he’s the one who started the anti. But I think there’s a sense in which as you survey this whole thing, we just came off the heels of talking about how Joe worked really hard to be righteous.

00:06:46:57 – 00:07:03:16
Michael Gewecke
And God knows it. God knows Joel by name. And God doesn’t need to be told that Joe about their jobs top of mind. And yet the reverse side of that claim is that in a way, it God’s the one that incites this action.

00:07:03:21 – 00:07:37:37
Clint Loveall
Yeah, and the Satan is the adversary, the one who works against. That’s why Satan becomes the name Satan being the supreme example of working against God. And God gives job such high praise. There’s no one like him on earth, but the Satan working now against that says, does job fear you for nothing? Of course, of course. He’s righteous.

00:07:37:37 – 00:08:03:09
Clint Loveall
You reward him. Of course he does good because he knows how much he gets out of it. He hasn’t suffered, so he has an incentive to do well. And here we begin. We’ll we’ll have lots of opportunities to talk about this. But here we begin to see the framework of this book. When you do right, you get blessed.

00:08:03:14 – 00:08:32:47
Clint Loveall
When you do wrong, you get cursed. And it is that framework that everyone in the story, including Jobe himself, is going to share. That is the outlook that defines the story, particularly the discourse of this book and the accusation that the Satan makes is, well, of course he’s upright. You made it easy for him. You bless him every time he does good.

00:08:32:47 – 00:09:12:11
Clint Loveall
So he turns around and does more good. It again, working against righteousness, working against God and and God in this. Here’s the challenge and says, okay, then, then you can do what you want to him. In other words, the Satan Satan has thrown down the gantlet I bet, I bet he would curse you. And God says like, okay, notice that it’s not a bet in the classical sense because the Lord just gives him permission.

00:09:12:16 – 00:09:43:03
Clint Loveall
This could ease. This could just as much be read God proving his case than it is it. I don’t know that you should read this. To think that God is also trying to see what job will do, what that that is a little that’s a little limited of the general portrait of God in the Old Testament. But there certainly are people who read it that way.

00:09:43:03 – 00:10:04:59
Clint Loveall
I think maybe that’s a secondary issue. The the main point I think we want to come out of this with is God praises job, Satan questions that praise, and God allows the Satan to work against job to either see what will happen or to prove his point.

00:10:05:04 – 00:10:30:56
Michael Gewecke
I think it’s interesting that this follows right on the tail of verse five here, where Jo explicitly mentions this concern my children have sinned and curse God in their hearts I. There’s a sense in which that theme of it’s not just the action undertaken, but it’s the heart behind it that we now see coming front and center here.

00:10:31:01 – 00:11:03:51
Michael Gewecke
Because here it’s, well, the reason why job’s a righteous man. The reason why job is upright and works so hard is because you’ve made life. You’ve given to him good. And so therefore his heart is the thing that’s called into question. I mean, ultimately, the thing that is being asked of here is, is job righteous? Because that is and that’s, integrated into his character or is it a byproduct of his circumstance.

00:11:03:55 – 00:11:23:31
Michael Gewecke
And so I think you’re right to point out, Clint, that there are a variety of ways that you could look at this story. If you’re a person who did think of this as some kind of smoky room with people playing, some kind of card game, and you think and it seems to you like, well, I bet you this I think you might be challenged to read this story and find.

00:11:23:31 – 00:11:43:34
Michael Gewecke
Yeah, there is a spot in this story where you can see that God is so confident in his servant job that this isn’t really a debate from God’s perspective. In other words, it’s to say, I know job’s character. That’s what I said in the beginning. And the accuser is going to find out that that God is correct, that that is seen.

00:11:43:39 – 00:12:10:48
Michael Gewecke
Of course, that’s troubling because of the cost that’s required in verifying the truth of job’s character. But yet all of this and you’re right to say, I don’t mean to just repeat here, but I think we have to understand that this is all done. So under the rubric, it only makes sense if you understand that formula. You have to enter into the story, recognizing that people who do good things should get good results, and the converse should also be true.

00:12:11:02 – 00:12:42:36
Michael Gewecke
What happens in this story is ask the question, what happens when that becomes invalid and where is not necessarily God in it? Because there’s going to be a way that God gets the final word. And I’m not certain that that God wraps that up in a way that we would find satisfying. I certainly think what it has to do is reflect upon the human experience of it the questions, the anger, the fear, and maybe even more tellingly, in some of the discourses, the justifications of it.

00:12:42:41 – 00:13:29:34
Clint Loveall
I think if you boil it down, the accusation that the Satan makes is that job’s faith is conditional, and that when it’s no longer of benefit to him to praise God, he won’t. That if he loses the blessing of his faith, he will lose his faith. He will curse God to his faith. And in essentially the charges that job only praises God when it’s in job’s best interest or when it reflects job’s own blessedness, which is, I mean a significant charge.

00:13:29:34 – 00:14:13:34
Clint Loveall
That’s when you lay that charge against the person that God says is the most righteous on the earth. The gantlet certainly has been thrown down at that point. Michael, we won’t be able to do this justice, but I do think it’s important on this front end of job here, because it’s going to be consistently with us. I think at some point, this book is going to make you wrestle with the concept of fairness, because for this argument to be off in heaven somewhere on some day is one thing.

00:14:13:39 – 00:14:48:25
Clint Loveall
But where the book goes next is to see the actual cost for job, the suffering that’s going to come to him. And is it fair that job undergoes these things because the adversary has questioned his faith, and once his faith is questioned, the only way to then verify it is to let the adversary do these horrible things to job and and God.

00:14:48:30 – 00:15:27:15
Clint Loveall
At at at very least allows that, perhaps even participates in it. God sets the limits and lets the adversary work within them. But it happens at God’s permission. And I think the discussion of job and fairness is a very tricky one because as we understand fairness, it’s not going to work because we share this same framework. If you do good, good should happen to you.

00:15:27:19 – 00:16:02:31
Clint Loveall
And if you do, bad, bad can happen to you. But they shouldn’t get mixed up and they shouldn’t cross over. And there shouldn’t be exceptions. And and that’s just not a framework. In fact, that’s the framework in many ways. I think this book is challenging even dismantling. And so it is a very nice natural question. And it is very natural to be troubled by the idea that this doesn’t seem fair to job.

00:16:02:36 – 00:16:13:07
Clint Loveall
And at some level, you just have to you if if you get stuck there, that’s all you’ll see.

00:16:13:12 – 00:16:36:27
Michael Gewecke
I think that that’s absolutely right. And I, I want to add maybe one other place we could get stuck. Clinton, you you mentioned this, but it’s worth repeating. I think we would be very wise to not read this story, looking for a literal theology that we’re hoping to encapsulate in a simple tract that we hand out to people.

00:16:36:27 – 00:16:57:36
Michael Gewecke
Because the way that this story is constructed, I know we’ve spent a lot of time at this point talking about some of these linguistic things, but it serves a purpose. And I think what we’ve got to understand is we’re going to see the suffering that happens to Joe. It’s not abstract, it’s not some pie in the sky kind of thinking.

00:16:57:45 – 00:17:29:46
Michael Gewecke
As the story gets told, it’s successive waves of real loss in his life. And anyone who’s lost in real, substantial ways, that’s going to be felt in your heart as you enter into this. I think you got to be really careful that you don’t begin making 1 to 1 arguments that this portrayal of God is, is the single portrayal of God in Scripture, or is that somehow gives you a behind the picture scene of how things happen in the heavenly court?

00:17:29:50 – 00:18:13:35
Michael Gewecke
Is there something that we learn about the the struggle of faith and the struggle of who we put our faith in, moments of our suffering? Absolutely, Clint. But I, I think we’ve got to be really, really careful that we understand that this is put within the context of the whole scripture, that this book is intentionally put beside the other books, and that also, I don’t think that what we have here is an exact outplay of when we suffer exactly what happened in the heavenly court before it came down to, I think this story is here to to to crack open human suffering and to ask us the question, what is the nature of our heart

00:18:13:35 – 00:18:32:48
Michael Gewecke
and character in the midst of suffering? Where do we struggle to to live our lives when it’s not fair and what is come to us we don’t deserve in the midst of that moment what what happens? And the Bible does that. But sometimes we oversimplify and we make this thing a thing we want to map onto all the other things.

00:18:32:49 – 00:18:34:24
Michael Gewecke
I think we gotta be careful to not do that.

00:18:34:33 – 00:19:12:01
Clint Loveall
There’s a universality in the story of Jobe, in that we all know something of suffering. We all have experienced, or perhaps we have witnessed someone suffer who we would say didn’t deserve it, didn’t bring it upon themselves, was a good person experiencing terrible things. And that’s an invitation to the book of Job to explore those deeper issues. What I think we have to be careful with, Michael, as as you’re saying, is that that doesn’t mean that Jobe is teaching us something universal.

00:19:12:16 – 00:19:43:18
Clint Loveall
It doesn’t mean that all suffering is a test. It doesn’t mean that all suffering is God approved, or that Satan has caused all suffering, that this is a very narrow slice of a particular question for a particular time and place pointed at a particular person. It is not explaining the breadth of human suffering and all the possible reasons for it.

00:19:43:22 – 00:20:33:50
Clint Loveall
In this book, we get what we don’t get in life behind the scenes look. Yeah. And in this case, that specific behind the scenes look is that this is a tremendous amount of difficulty pointed at the most righteous man on earth, who is going to wrestle with his faith in the aftermath of that suffering and is going to argue with three colleagues who present a religious answer to that, that he finds unacceptable and and when we try when the story of Jobe gets beyond the banks of that river, I don’t think it is likely to help us.

00:20:33:51 – 00:20:37:34
Clint Loveall
In fact, I think maybe just the opposite.

00:20:37:39 – 00:20:54:41
Michael Gewecke
I think that’s really well said and a great place to leave it today. We continue on tomorrow, and we way deeper in that river and I think the current gets faster. So I hope you’ll join us for that. Like this video. It has taught you something, encouraged you, inspired you to go along with us on the journey.

00:20:54:41 – 00:20:58:15
Michael Gewecke
Subscribe so you don’t miss the not miss the next episode. We’ll see you tomorrow.