00:00:00:25 – 00:00:24:09
Clint Loveall
Hey friends, thanks for joining us as we finish out the week here on this Thursday. Working our way through Ephesians. We’re in chapter four, verse seven. A little bit of all over the place today, but let’s let’s jump in and read and then we’ll come back and talk it through. But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

00:00:24:14 – 00:00:46:01
Clint Loveall
Therefore, it is said, when he ascended on high, he made captivity itself a captive. He gave gifts to his people. When it says he ascended. What does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the same one who ascended far above the heavens, so that he might fulfill all things.

00:00:46:06 – 00:01:07:55
Clint Loveall
The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ until all of us come to the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of full stature, of Christ.

00:01:08:00 – 00:01:43:40
Clint Loveall
So, the transition here, a wonderful move as Paul begins to have some conversation about the work of the church community. He’s been hitting hard. The idea that of the oneness of the church community, the oneness of the faith. And now he begins to unpack some of what it means to be in that community. And the first thing that he chooses to focus on here is the idea that each of us is given some grace, that each of us is given some skill.

00:01:43:40 – 00:02:18:51
Clint Loveall
And grace here does not mean necessarily the forgiveness of sins exclusively. It means, in addition to that, some sort of equipping for the work of Christ. And then, you know, often, Michael, when we see these kind of quotes, this, second or this eighth verse here is kind of set aside. It is often speculated that Paul might be quoting some early liturgy or a hymn perhaps, or something that he knows.

00:02:18:57 – 00:02:58:46
Clint Loveall
This this is not a a quote per se. This is something that he is quoting, that he evidently believes that the people he’s writing to will know they’ll have knowledge of. And so he takes this little detour about, you know, what does it mean that he ascended and he gave his people gifts, but he had also descended, sometimes Paul can’t stop himself from doing a little theology along the way, but I think the strongest impact of this is the idea that those of us in the faith are equipped for the working of the church.

00:02:58:51 – 00:03:16:25
Clint Loveall
We’ve seen over the last couple of sessions that the purpose of the church, the purpose of the community, is to spread the knowledge of the revealed mystery of Christ. And now Paul begins to get into how we do that and the ways in which we’re equipped to do it.

00:03:16:30 – 00:03:54:27
Michael Gewecke
This text requires maybe a little bit more than average setup, I think. And so I want to say two quick things. First of all, this idea that we flow from unity and this emphasis upon unity that you see right here, one body, one spirit, Clint was just talking about that, that that is so important to recognize that it is from the foundation of unity that Paul is now going to start building a theological understanding of differences, and that is for the purpose of understanding unity.

00:03:54:32 – 00:04:21:54
Michael Gewecke
How has God uniquely given gifts is an important component of understanding how people with uniquely different gifts all function together as one. We have to hold them together. It’s intended to be like a gravitational force. The unity of Christ is strong enough to hold all of these different gifts together. That’s important so that also, this is not the first time that we’ve seen in the book of Ephesians the reference to Christ.

00:04:21:59 – 00:04:55:01
Michael Gewecke
Sending you have it in references to heaven. You have literally this talk about Jesus Christ having been raised. There is this eternal sense in Paul that as he understands, as the writer of this book, considers what is supposed to be true on earth, it is also already true where Jesus Christ is, because ultimately the kingdom. That’s not completely yet here, as we see it, is the kingdom that is increasingly reflecting the kingdom that already is in Jesus Christ.

00:04:55:03 – 00:05:13:21
Michael Gewecke
This is another tension held together in the text. And so I think when you come to a passage, which is maybe, to be honest with you dropping in on this, a little bit, this might be a little jarring. When he ascended on high, he made captivity itself a captive. He gave gifts to his people. Now, that’s an interesting quote.

00:05:13:33 – 00:05:35:48
Michael Gewecke
And trust me, scholars have gone, you know, with much, much writing and reflection as to where this comes from and what it originally meant. But for us, when it says he ascended, what does it mean? But he also descended to the lower parts of the earth. Now we’re going to start talking about gifts, the gifts that Christ has given us, because of his willingness to ascend and ascend.

00:05:35:52 – 00:06:00:30
Michael Gewecke
This is what happens all of the time in the New Testament is you have an argument being fleshed out, which references previous material known to the people, whether that be Old Testament or a hymn or whatever it might be. And then you’re going to see the New Testament writer helped turn it so that the people can see what it means for them, much like a modern sermon or a class that you might take, or a study like you’re enjoying right now.

00:06:00:30 – 00:06:22:43
Michael Gewecke
Whatever it is, the whole point of this is to help us understand the so what for today. And here I just want to sort of note this might seem like it’s jumping out with us, and it might seem that this is odd, but really, you have another central argument being made here that’s been tied throughout this whole book that ultimately, Jesus Christ is the unifier.

00:06:22:48 – 00:06:37:54
Michael Gewecke
And then you’re going to have the point made that because he’s the unifier, it’s the gifts that he gives us that are relevant towards the differences we see within the body. And this is all connected to this language. And the references to the old is all for the purpose of helping us see this point.

00:06:37:58 – 00:07:19:00
Clint Loveall
My, my study Bible here, Michael, you know, I love how it puts it here. The writer offers a digression on Christ. So he he kind of wants to do a little teaching along the way. And I will say there is a beautiful line here in verse eight, he made captivity itself a captive. There are some, some ironic quotes that are something like that in the New Testament, the death of death.

00:07:19:04 – 00:07:42:22
Clint Loveall
But he made captivity itself a captive. Is is a really nice idea. The takeaway for Paul, though, if we want to get to the heart of the matter, I think here we get there in verse 11, that the gifts he he gave his people gifts for the working and what is remember the work is to share the mystery of God in Jesus Christ.

00:07:42:27 – 00:08:07:15
Clint Loveall
And to that end he chose. And he gave that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, and some teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry. I think there are two things that are important about this and you could go through there are wonderful word studies. If you wanted to, you could go through and dig out the meaning of each of these.

00:08:07:30 – 00:08:35:28
Clint Loveall
What’s an apostle versus an evangelist? What’s a prophet versus a pastor? I, I’m going to kind of assume that those are somewhat self-explanatory and not try to get in the weeds on that, but I think what is interesting here is that it would be easy to read that verse and think that it is their work that the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers do the work.

00:08:35:32 – 00:09:07:19
Clint Loveall
But look at the next verse to equip the saints for the work of ministry. And we’ve already covered in this letter, when Paul says the word saint, he means Christian, that that’s synonymous for him with any person of Christ. So the gifts are not specifically so some people can go do the work of making Christ known. The gifts are that so that some people can help everybody go do the work of making Christ known.

00:09:07:19 – 00:09:37:46
Clint Loveall
And I think that’s an amazing thing to to hear in this text. We we too often think that those who have titles or labels are the ones who go do evangelism, go do sharing. The mystery. But that’s not at all how Paul sees it. Paul sees that there are some who have a specific role in helping everybody do what is their task, which is sharing the revealed work of Christ in the world.

00:09:37:51 – 00:10:02:45
Michael Gewecke
I’ve got to just confess this right out of the gate, bear to confess it and be honest about it. This is a text where I actually struggle to bring some objectivity to because growing up, Clint, this passage was called The Fivefold Gifts, and this was read as being a kind of literal road map for church leadership. And there were some who I have to confess to.

00:10:02:45 – 00:10:24:16
Michael Gewecke
You did teach this like a ladder, like like a hierarchy. Exactly. Like you would go up the ladder as you went. I think to be charitable in an argument, you would say that you can see how when you read a text that says he gave the gifts past tense, you get the sense that, well, this is the list.

00:10:24:16 – 00:10:50:33
Michael Gewecke
This is an exhaustive concordance. This is the leadership manual. And to be fair, the New Testament is truly, shockingly quiet when it comes to how churches should govern themselves, how leaders should be equipped with what responsibilities. And there are some things about character that are spelled out. But if you’re looking for what are the roles of ministry? There are not many techs, so this is one that people go to.

00:10:50:33 – 00:11:12:00
Michael Gewecke
That’s a long set up. The point I want to make here is very simple. If you read this in context, what you discover is that Jesus Christ gives grace specifically to different people for the purpose of building up what the body of Christ. Until all of us come to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God.

00:11:12:00 – 00:11:42:54
Michael Gewecke
In other words, this is less about the differences of the giftings and about instead it’s about the 100% shared purpose of the giftings, right? Ultimately, yes, there may be people who are doing different things for the sake of the equipping, but what is the equipping for the same thing for each and every single one of those people? It is for the building up of the church, for the equipping of the saints, for the unity of the body.

00:11:42:59 – 00:12:09:18
Michael Gewecke
This is where I think a counter argument would be made that this isn’t about a ladder of responsibility, but rather it’s about helping us see that different people are given different gifts because of their own natural predisposition, because of the Spirit of God working within them. Family history, all of this stuff that we know, every person is unique and God can, through that uniqueness, bring a special gift, a charism to the body.

00:12:09:27 – 00:12:41:04
Michael Gewecke
That’s what’s being discussed here, that I would be comfortable saying that I think when Paul writes this, it’s not with the idea of let’s make an exhaustive list of leadership. This is rather an exemplar of the many different ways that God is using people for the sake of equipping the saints, and you may not find yourself exactly in one of these areas, but you are part of the unity being imagined here, and therefore you two are going to have gifts that God intends to use for the sake of the whole.

00:12:41:09 – 00:12:51:54
Clint Loveall
This would be a hard thing to prove, Michael and and pull the reins on it. If you think it’s too far.

00:12:51:59 – 00:13:14:15
Clint Loveall
We if you split this couple of verses in kind of two halves, the idea is here’s the gifts on the front end and here’s the end of the gifts, or the point or the working of the gifts on the back end. And, and I think we have tended to overemphasize the front end.

00:13:14:15 – 00:13:15:03
Michael Gewecke
Yeah.

00:13:15:07 – 00:13:47:47
Clint Loveall
I think Paul is most concerned about the back end. I don’t think that Paul cares too much about. Yeah, some of you or this and some people are this and some people that I think Paul is more interested in. If you follow me here, I think it I think I can make that case until all of us come to the unity of faith, the knowledge of the Son of God, and to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ.

00:13:47:49 – 00:14:23:51
Clint Loveall
I think in Paul’s mind, it is far more important that Christians move toward the full stature than who it is, or by what giftedness they are led there. I, I just, I think sometimes we, we, we get things upside down. And I think this may be one of those places I, I, I think that it would be I think it’d be hard to argue that Paul cares or thinks apostles are better than evangelists or pastors or better than teachers.

00:14:23:55 – 00:14:48:06
Clint Loveall
I don’t think he cares about that. I think he cares that the gifts exist to bring all people to the full stature of maturity in Christ, and that is the goal. And in that goal, the very gifting of the idea of that some people are special goes away. If we’re all at the full stature of Christ, then that’s as good as it gets.

00:14:48:10 – 00:15:11:28
Michael Gewecke
This strikes me like when an orchestra is coming to its final flourish, it’s got a building kind of nature to it that takes a look at this. It is for the building up of the body. Yes. Until when all of us come to the unity. Okay, so here we have a kind of relational sense, the unity of the faith.

00:15:11:33 – 00:15:33:43
Michael Gewecke
Next, we move to knowledge of God. There’s something to learn. There’s a transformation in our understanding of the world and how we process the world that we live in. But we keep going. The flourish continues to maturity. Okay. What is maturity to the measure of the full stature of Christ?

00:15:33:48 – 00:16:09:36
Michael Gewecke
Pause here that we could read by that the full measure of the stature of Christ. And this isn’t about apostles. This isn’t about teachers, that this is about the church. This is for for Paul. Whether you’re a pastor reading Paul, a theologian reading Paul, or whether you’re a professional person working your career, reading Paul doesn’t matter. All of us, the perspectives that we’re going to bring to Paul, this is an astonishing statement because we know that Paul knows church.

00:16:09:36 – 00:16:34:04
Michael Gewecke
He knows the fellowship of community, he knows difficult personalities. He knows all the stuff that gets in the way. We have in his letters, examples of him hitting his head against the wall over and over and over again, trying to help the church understand who it’s called to be. And here this guy says the full measure of the stature of Christ that is a gorgeous, beautiful, climactic kind of phrase.

00:16:34:15 – 00:16:57:27
Michael Gewecke
That is what we’re called to be. And yes, we fail to meet that bar, but it’s not our definition in failure that we look to. It’s the calling ahead. It’s the supporting, the unity, the knowledge, the equipping. All of this is intended for the purpose of helping us live in to what God wants for us, which is the fullness of the measure of Christ.

00:16:57:27 – 00:17:00:25
Michael Gewecke
And my goodness, that’s an amazing statement.

00:17:00:30 – 00:17:42:09
Clint Loveall
It is. And I think that only lends credence to this idea that Paul cares far more about the results of the gifts than the recipients of the gifts. I think Paul’s vision of a church, which is unified and standing, mature in the full measure of Christ. The questions of hierarchy of gifts goes away at that point. And I just think that is a that’s the highest mountain top the church could strive for is to stand in the full measure of Christ, in the oneness of the faith that Paul has.

00:17:42:14 – 00:17:59:46
Clint Loveall
Paul has such an amazing vision of what we might be capable of as the body of Christ, that it is humbling. It’s inspiring. It’s it’s kind of it’s kind of leaves one awestruck when you really listen to it.

00:17:59:50 – 00:18:39:49
Michael Gewecke
Thousands of years later, we are not better equipped to measure where this is happening, but we still. How big is the church? How many seats does it have? How many people go there? How good is the music? How good was the preaching? Or how good is the programing? For however, we might measure what happens in the church. This this frame is so important and we need to practice reminding ourself over and over again your job, wherever you’re serving Jesus Christ, wherever you’re a disciple of Jesus Christ, it does not exist for the purpose of any kind of advancement.

00:18:39:54 – 00:19:06:12
Michael Gewecke
That is not the kind of maturation of Christlike character in the people who you’re called to serve and love. This is an antidote in a lot of ways to what we misplace church to be. It is nothing other than the kind of unity that comes living out the character of Christ in the world. And once again, the fact that we will fail over and over and over again is not a surprise to Paul.

00:19:06:12 – 00:19:32:51
Michael Gewecke
And it shouldn’t be to us. It does not change the source of our calling. We are called to wake again, to receive grace afresh, to live into the unity that we’re called to be. And we’re called to to live into this calling. That is the point. And, you know, for a text that often gets referenced, I think a lot for the names of the gifts, you’re going to miss if you get stuck there, you’re going to miss an amazing moment a few verses later.

00:19:33:03 – 00:19:47:06
Clint Loveall
And both the calling and the road to fulfill the calling are gifts of the one who ascended and descended and made captivity his captive. That that is a really powerful section here.

00:19:47:11 – 00:20:01:33
Michael Gewecke
That comes to the end of our week here. Hope you have a blessed weekend if you’re joining us as we do this live. Certainly. Like this video. If it’s been helpful for you, helps others find it in their own study of Ephesians, maybe there’ll be something new for them. Also, would love for you to subscribe. Stick with us for these studies and we’ll see you next week.

00:20:01:33 – 00:20:02:13
Clint Loveall
Thanks everybody.